Immortal Vigilance

Seraph · **Posted:** Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:42 am

Alright, there seem to be three schools of thought on Split Actions.

1) That all your Split Actions happen simultaneously on your turn. For example: Billy Brujah announces splitting his attack into three punches. When his turn comes around, he rolls all three simultaneously, then it proceeds to the next initiative.

2) That you take your primary action on your turn, and all split actions happen at the end of the round. For example: Billy Brujah announces splitting his attack into three punches. When his turn comes around, he rolls one punch, then waits till everyone else has rolled their main attack and then rolls his two splits at the end of the round.

3) That you take cycling turns with your split actions. For example: Billy Brujah announces splitting his attack into three punches. When his turn comes around, he rolls one punch, then someone else rolls their attack, then he rolls his second split, then they roll their second split, then he rolls his third split, then they rolls theirs et cetera.

Since I've been in a plethora of scenes where the same venue has different STs making that ruling different, can we get a hard-and-fast on what IV's policy here is?

Unlife Eternal · **Posted:** Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:37 pm

I am curious to see where this stands now too Seraph.

Quote:

1) That all your Split Actions happen simultaneously on your turn. For example: Billy Brujah announces splitting his attack into three punches. When his turn comes around, he rolls all three simultaneously, then it proceeds to the next initiative.

Though this is clearly against at least the vtm core rules, I've seen this done before mainly due to the ease of getting through a combat round more speedily and usally only in PC vs NPC combats.

Quote:

2) That you take your primary action on your turn, and all split actions happen at the end of the round. For example: Billy Brujah announces splitting his attack into three punches. When his turn comes around, he rolls one punch, then waits till everyone else has rolled their main attack and then rolls his two splits at the end of the round.

Never seen this done, but it seems to me that this would be a bit closer to the core rules than number 1, but with the convenience of slightly speedier combat rounds.

Quote:

3) That you take cycling turns with your split actions. For example: Billy Brujah announces splitting his attack into three punches. When his turn comes around, he rolls one punch, then someone else rolls their attack, then he rolls his second split, then they roll their second split, then he rolls his third split, then they rolls theirs et cetera.

This is what I perceive to be the most literal interpretation of the core rules to be. But due to extremely sluggish behavior of people on chats due to multiple windows or semi afk playstyles, is largely inconvenient especially in large combats. Though in small PVP combats this is what I always used as an ST when moderating those scenes.

****Disclaimer: Please note that the above is only MY perception of what the core rules say and may or may be not any existing law or rule as utilized here on IV or anywhere else in the known and unknown universes. Thank you!

Does-it-Matter · **Posted:** Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:05 pm

I know Urban W:tA uses Option 1 (Main + Split at the same time), unless it is a small combat scene, in which case Option 3 seems to be the case. (viewtopic.php?p=161343#p161343)

I've always seen Rural as the same case, given how the two venues try to remain as "same across the boards" as possible. As everyone in W:tA has Rage to some degree, if you then factor in Split actions, it is one of the major venues where massive, lengthy combat is typical. The above options were implemented as time savers I recall.

Kiira · **Posted:** Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:08 pm

What I do in Rural: 3. in small scenes. 1. in mass combat for the sake of not making it drag out even longer.

Seraph · **Posted:** Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:03 pm

Personally, I'm an advocate of #3. But I think there should be a hard and fast for one set. Never knowing who's going to ascribe to what ruleset and when makes guesswork fairly dicey. Clearly if I can split five actions and have them all happen simultaneously, my declare would be a sight different than if they happen after everyone else had a few actions too.

Hades · **Posted:** Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:01 pm

When I have been an ST, online and table-top both, I have ruled that split actions occur at the same time as your primary action, while extra actions such as those from Rage, Celerity and the like occur after everyone has gone through their initiative cycle.

As an example:

Character A is faced with 2 NPC opponents and is armed with a heavy revolver. He decides to take a chance to end combat quickly, and declares a split action of firing once at each NPC. When it is his turn to act, he goes through the normal process of subtracting dice from his rolls, and then rolls at that time for both shots and calculating damage assuming both rolls succeed.

I don't have my books in front of me at the moment to verify the wording, but I believe that is the case given in each of the venues that I have the core books for (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage and Demon) and is one of the few areas of agreement across the multiple venues.

Unlife Eternal · **Posted:** Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:24 am

Here is the wording from VTM

Quote:

Occasionally, a player will want her character to perform more than one action in a turn - for example, firing a gun at two different targets, or climbing a ledge while kicking at pursuers below. In such situations, the player can attempt actions normally, though all actions suffer a penalty.

The player declares the total number of actions he wishes his character to attempt. He then subtracts a number of dice from his first dice pool equal to the total number of actions. Additional actions lose an extra die from their pools, cumulative; if a dice pool is reduced to zero or below in this manner, the action may not be attempted.

Example: Justin wishes his character, Hall the Nosferatu, to throw a punch while simultaneously dodging two incoming blows. Hall has Dexterity 3, Brawl 4 and Dodge 3. Justin calculates the dice pool for the punch (Dexterity 3 + Brawl 4 = 7 dice pool), then subtracts three dice from it (because of the three actions total), for a final dice pool of 4. The first dodge has abase dice pool of 6 (Dexterity 3 + Dodge 3), minus four (three for the number of actions, plus one for being the second multiple action), for a final dice pool of 2. The final dodge has a dice pool of 1 (6, minus three for the number of actions, minus an additional two for being the third action attempted). Hall had better be pretty lucky.

Vampires with the Discipline of Celerity (p. 153) may take multiple actions without subtracting dice from their dice pools. These extra actions may not themselves be divided into multiple actions.

And here

Quote:

Multiple Actions: If you declare multiple actions, subtract dice from the first dice pool equal to the total number of actions taken. Each subsequent action loses an additional die (cumulative). If a character performs only defensive actions in a turn, use the appropriate block, dodge or parry system.

The Discipline of Celerity allows vampires to take multiple actions without this penalty. See the Discipline description for particulars.

And here

Quote:

Celerity:
System: The character spends a single blood point. The next turn, she gains a number of additional full actions equal to her Celerity rating. These additional actions must be physical (e.g., the vampire cannot use a mental Discipline like Dominate multiple times in one turn). So a vampire with Celerity 4 who spends a blood point may perform a total of five physical actions in her next turn. The actions occur at the end of the turn (the vampire's regular action still takes place per her initiative roll).

Take it for what you will.

Overcast · **Posted:** Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:24 pm

If you really want to add confusion to the multiple actions rules, you can then look at the Demon combat rules for multiple actions, which are completely different than every other game.

Honestly, a chat-wide policy on this is a very good idea, if only because of the different way multiple actions are handled in each venue.

Bait · **Posted:** Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:32 pm

I think venue-wide rulings would be more realistic. I prefer the "since you made my combat more complicated and thusly longer, your PC dies and all your friends IC die....and everyone you have ever talked to.

rude · **Posted:** Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:48 pm

Most rulebooks I have read go by nr 3 on Seraph's list. In massive combat, and as a ST prerogative, a simpler system might be used, to save time (a simple combat scene avarages a minimum of 3 hours, in my experience) This system should be noted at the beginning of said combat. If nothing is said, assume it is by the book, i.e. each action happens in turn (with the exception of defensive actions, which happen when they need to, also per the book)

In all rules, as far as I'm concerned, Celerity/Rage or what have you are no different than so called splits, they're all multiple actions, but you don't lose dicepools when using supernatural powers to act.

So, yes, you could do 5 splits, if you have dicepools of at least 10 in the combined attribute+ability you are using (since you must have at least 1 dice on the last action, after penalties for multiple actions) 10-5 gives 5 for the first action, 4 for the second, 3 for the third, 2 for the fourth, and 1 for the fifth. You can add 5 celerity actions to that, for a total of 10 actions, but yeah, we will look the other way when the other players murder you for this...

kalandron · **Joined:** Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:26 am **Posts:** 1358

Doesn't that run into multiple actions limits (in WtA it is Dexterity or Wits, including Rage actions, if I remember right)?

Kiira · **Posted:** Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:14 pm

Yep, Kal.

Dex or Wits (whichever is lower) = total number of actions allowed without taking a difficulty penalty (+3 I think, not 100% sure since I'm in Thailand without my books atm).

If in Frenzy, the limiting stat is Dex only.

So you could do 5 way split + 4 rage actions, but all of them would take the difficulty penalty.

Overcast · **Posted:** Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:46 am

However that's cross-venue problems once again. Vampires have no in-book limit to the number of actions they may take. Werewolves do. When worlds collide, there's a huge problem (not to mention any vampire with celerity handing the werewolf their ass, simply by overwhelming them with the sheer number of actions they can take. If you go with each using their respective rules that is).

Unlife Eternal · **Posted:** Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:40 am

Celerity and Potence have always handed Werewolves their arse, assuming the vampire has enough Fortitude and luck to not die in the one round it takes Celerity to get up and running. Remember, Werewolves can use Rage Actions in the very first round...vampires have to wait till the next round for their Cel to kick in.

Unless of course your St would allow preloading of Cel in the fight, which I think is dumb.

Larry · **Joined:** Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:00 pm **Posts:** 959

I'd have too disagree there JJim, venue wide ruilings would do more damage than good specificaly becaiuuse ST's can't make up their minds with this particular rulke. I'd personaly suggest it be left too the poplayers and for reference I've personaly always played the Next in line approach.

Captain bill bunion takes 3 splits, Drama qeen dierdre takes 2 and Billy the bicyling midget stunman t calls 3 actions..

Captainl would take his first action wilnning the init, Dierdre would take her first and Billy his first, then Captain would take his second and so on down the line. This makes mass combat harder for St's of course but makes it far fairer for players.

Untamed · **Joined:** Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:51 am **Posts:** 572

Who said combat is fair? We don't need rules to make combat fair, just apply the rules as they are written for each venue. Apparently we need the IV staff to clarify the rules. Do so... for each venue.

If vampires get to throw a lot of dice up front, because the rules allow it, then they should be allowed to. Don't get in a fight with a vampire.

If werewolves can spend rage up front and sling a crap load of damage dice, then don't get in a fight with a werewolf.

We don't need to level the playing field here. We just need to make sure the STs and players understand the rules AS WRITTEN for each venue. For cross venue combat, each venue uses their own rules, not some hybrid that makes it "fair" for each combatant.

Yes, vamps can split their dice, take some penalties, and use all splits before the next person. AND vamps can spend willpower to ignore ALL wound penalties, while wolves cant.

Each venue has their own combat rules, stick to them. Don't write even more house rules that no one will remember. Everyone learn the game you are playing.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Fulltilt · **Posted:** Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:25 pm

I agree with untamed since the difference in combat systems and rules only come into play as being a problem when there is crossover combat and well that does not really happen on the chat since crossover is discouraged among venues, especially crossover from differing games.

scubasteve · **Posted:** Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:43 am

Yeah I've been in scenes with all three happening over time. A ruling verdict on this would be good. But I still don't get how it would make cross-over difficult. Every sect/venue has different rules for a reason. It's designed to make cross-over easy...You don't need a universal set of rules. Untamed made a prime example. If you're gonna whine because a werewolf can do something differently due to the rules they play by, then make a vampire with enough sense not to go out and tackle a werewolf. Or vice-versa. Cross-over is very simple when you compare the rules. The problem is players whining that each venue plays by a different set of rules...But those rules work together, and they do it for a reason. Every game in WoD has its perks and flaws.

Legion · **Joined:** Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:53 am **Posts:** 232

As i'm sure somebody said here, there is no cross-over anyhow, so venue rulinmgs should be enough. As to splits in VtM, celelrity actions happen at the end of the round as that's when the vampire 'speeds up', so I think it makes most sense for VtM to have split actions happen together in the players round, then have all cel actions at the end.

From a little TT testing, it was far better to have a player split twice and then get their cel actions last, than have them declare 'Hits him in the face six times'. (The second way was really, really funny however).

interpretcoincidence · **Posted:** Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:21 am

I dunno if I'm speaking for any venue but mage, but it depends on who's doing the crossing over.

If the mage walks into the vampire's world, then the vampire's rules apply. If the vampire walks into the mage venue, then the Mage's rules apply.

Immortal Vigilance

Split Actions

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